Queering Friendship with Nicole Albrecht
A conversation on platonic life partnership, platonic/non-platonic binary, and learning to love.
Hello, this is Ji-Youn Kim and welcome to Ji’s Musings. But also please don't call me Ji unless you and I know each other in real life and are pretty close [chuckles]. But it just sounds better, you know? Ji’s Musings.
Welcome to my substack. I honestly am still trying to figure out what platforms to use for what. Yeah, it's a struggle, but I've decided to start the substack anyways. Just go for it, to share some more of my personal reflections and the less therapist-y writings, I guess, that are usually on my work website.
But anyways, these first couple of posts are related to an essay that I recently published, called A Decolonial Queer Praxis of Anti-Mononormativity in Therapeutic Practice. Yes, it is a mouthful. This is published on my work website on itsjiyounkim.com if you haven't checked it out yet. I originally wrote this piece for a course on Queer and Trans of Colour Theorizing in my last semester of university and so it is a much more academic and theoretical piece.
And in contrast, I wanted to share a little bit about more personal things about how I navigate anti-mononormative relating in my own life. So that's what we're here doing today. Firstly, I will share that I am a compulsory hetero—I have been a compulsory hetero and a compulsory monogamist. I absolutely thought that I was straight [laughs]. I just assumed that I was straight. And I also used to definitely believe in, you know, The One. And chase after it and it sucked. Because chasing after The One love in cis straight men as an anxiously attached person really sucks [chuckles]. But thankfully now, I identify much more with a queer and community-oriented polyamorous ish framework of relating. And my goal, in general, in terms of how I navigate relationships, is to build decentralized networks of care, intimacy, romance, and love. And just to have a bunch of different people helping me meet and fulfill my variety of needs and desires.
In sharing more about how I navigate anti-mononormative relating, I thought that rather than writing a whole other essay, I wanted to share my experiences through featuring two of my queer relationships. You will be hearing from two humans, Nicole Albrecht and Gabes Torres. I had two different conversations with them and we talk about love, romance, the eros, and queering friendship. I will say, please recognize that what we share in each of these conversations is based on what has been working for us in our particular relationships. So just take what resonates and leave the rest.
In this first conversation, you will be hearing from my friend, Nicole. Nicole uses she/they pronouns. They currently live on the land of the Tongva tribe in what is colonially known as Los Angeles, California. They are a fellow Leo rising. They recently started working as a beekeeper. She has a deep love for the outdoors and creation. Nicole is a joy seeker, an ambitious go-getter, an avid learner, and they're also just effortlessly aesthetic. You know one of those people? Yeah, I wish I was them but I’m not [chuckles]. Nicole is also a lover to literally the most communicative and vocal cat, Timmy. And she's also a lover of mine. Tim and I are super blessed. Nicole and I talk on the daily via voice notes [chuckles], so basically, I invited her into this conversation through our usual mode of communication and so you'll be hearing from… you'll be hearing us chat and kind of process through a series of voice notes. I hope you enjoy.
JI-YOUN: Okay, so I'm just gonna tag this one to our usual string of voice notes. And I will start off with how we met, and then I'll pass on a question to you and feel free to add anything as well.
So okay, so how we met. You and I met over Tumblr a little over 10 years ago, when I was in my, or about to head into my senior year of high school and you were about to head into your first year of college. And we met on Tumblr. You had a little bit of a fitness Tumblr thing because we were both powerlifting as young women, young femmes, very young femmes. And we can unpack how having a following on Tumblr as a young woman, as a fitness Tumblr, how the social perception of that kind of fucks us up [chuckles].
But anyways, I was following you on Tumblr and then one day, I saw that you posted a picture of your run, which was on the Stanley Park seawall here in so-called Vancouver. And so I DM’ed you first, I was like, Oh my gosh, are you in Vancouver?? And that's how we connected. That was in the summer and then you headed off to college, the school year began, and then we got together in person for the first time on— and we know the exact date of this because I did the archival work for it— on October 26, 2012 at a coffee shop called Coco et Olive in Mount Pleasant, here in so-called Vancouver. That was our first little coffee. And so we just began our relationship since then, our friendship and relationships since then.
And despite not ever living together in the same city for a long time, we've been able to kind of visit each other and maintain for the most part a long-distance relationship. So that's how we met. Let me know if you want to add anything to that or your personal reflections on how we met. But I will say that I remember texting my friend in high school, earlier in the month being like, Oh my god, Nicole texted me!! I was so excited to be in communication with you [chuckles], I was fangirling really hard.
Okay, feel free to add to it. And then my question to start us off in the conversation is, how would you describe our relationship? How do you describe our relationship to people? And then I can get into this a little bit myself too, but I explicitly asked you about the term friendship and also about the term platonic life partner in describing our relationship. So yeah, we'll start there.
NICOLE: Hellooo. I think you did a fantastic job of summarizing the beginning of our relationship. I do want to add for context that I had never at that point met up with anyone off of the internet [chuckles]. Meeting up with people via social media was not really a thing for me, and I think for many people at that point in time. And I think that was the case for you too, so correct me if I'm wrong. But just reflecting back on that, I think it's pretty cool how we were—our relationship began at the precipice, how connecting with others in the 21st century is now commonplace. People make friends over Instagram, over YouTube, and what have you. But to think that we were kind of at the forefront of that and we were totally open to it is really neat to think about. And I also think, I'm sure we'll get into this a bit later, but just thinking about queering relationships, I think that how we met, our meet cute is very queer in of itself, given that period of time.
As for how I describe our relationship to people in my life or people I've just met, because you literally come up in so many conversations [laughs]. I think it's particularly in the past couple of years that I have not only used the phrase best friend but also the phrase platonic lifelong partner or platonic life partner. Because I think, just the more that I reflect on our relationship and the more that it grows in depth and in scope, the phrase best friend seems really limiting. It doesn't, to me, encompass the complexities, and I guess the expansiveness that the phrase life partner does include, you know? Because when it comes to our relationship, it's very intimate. I'd say that's one of the key descriptors of our relationship. It's very intimate, it's very intentional. There's a lot of love in all the different ways. It's very supportive, encouraging, inspiring. There's so much joy. I'm constantly learning from you, and I feel that that's a mutual experience in our relationship. And so when you take all of those things and tack the label best friend on it, I don't think it necessarily equates, especially in the way that someone may understand the phrase best friend. So I've been using both terms.
And I think it's intentional too, on my end to include, to bring up the phrase platonic life partner because I like to [chuckles], I like to plant seeds in people's minds and widen their perspectives on different things. So, I guess that's like an easy way to encourage or possibly open someone's eyes to looking at platonic friendships, relationships in a different way, in a different context. I guess that's like the anti-establishment part of me that is doing some work. But also, I want to stay true to describe the realities of our relationship, which is so much deeper than what a quote-unquote common traditional friendship may, how people may perceive, a common, traditional friendship.
Adding on to that, another reason why I use the phrase platonic life partner to describe you and to describe our relationship is that when it comes to romantic sexual relationships, I don't think, at this point in my life, I don't think I would give that relationship more weight than the relationship I have with you. And I would say that the majority of people would subscribe to that, that is just the common culture, relationship hierarchy. So to communicate, to label our friendship, our relationship, using the specific phrase life partner instead of just saying best friend, I think that it challenges people's assumptions of the importance of platonic relationships in life, I guess. So yeah, I think using that phrase gives the relationship a different weight and a different importance, and it easily communicates that to someone who may not be used to looking at platonic relationships in that way.
So, posing a question if you need a question to answer [chuckles] because I feel like we can talk about this for ages, the concept in term of platonic life partner and queering relationships in general. But a question I have in mind for you is, in what ways has our relationship, and I suppose the queering of relating to one another in our relationship, influenced and impacted other relationships in your life?
JI-YOUN: Oh my god, okay [laughs], so I want you to know that as soon as I started listening to your voice notes with the sparkle emoji, which we have tagged for the ones relevant to this project, I guess. When I started listening to your voice notes being like, oh my gosh, we are so freaking cute and also, what a brilliant idea this was, because we're gonna look back at this, and this is gonna, oh my gosh, we're adding this to our archive of our relationship [laughter].
So for the listeners, just for a little bit of context… Nicole and I have been friends… we celebrated 10 years of our friendship recently last fall, and I went through the freaking digital archives of Tumblr and Facebook and all these different apps and media forms that we've shared our relationship on. And I put a bunch of it together into a reel, as a little birthday gift. But yeah, we're just adding to our archive of our relationship. So I was like, wow, Ji, you are so freaking brilliant. Go you, as in go me! Okay. But anyways, I definitely appreciate the extra context and what you said about how it was really unusual and not common and not normal for people to be meeting and making friends on the internet 10 years ago. And especially as young, young people too, right? But yeah, it wasn't commonplace. And I remember in the first few and handful of years of our friendship, telling people how we met and they were always so surprised that we met through Tumblr. So yeah, it's pretty non-normative the way that we met.
And yes to everything that you said about the difference between using the term platonic life partner. I think it's a lot more expansive and encompassing. What I really, really love about it, I think, is when we started to use that term to describe our relationship for which we had a very explicit conversation around, consent-oriented conversation of, do we both agree and align with this? I think when I first started, it was a significant [re]orientation to how I experienced our relationship, but it also just made much… I think it changed things, but it also just really affirmed things first and foremost. Cuz I think I already had a felt sense that we were doing our relationship, our friendship in a non-normative way. And then to have this phrase was really affirming. And then it also definitely shifted how I continued to approach our relationship, but also all other relationships. And it also obviously impacts the way that I describe our relationship to people and how others experience and perceive our relationship.
So yeah, I think the piece that I love the most about it too is how it tackles the relationship hierarchy of usually monogamous, romantic relationships at the top, and then friendships being more, kind of like lower than that? And of course that is amplified through legalized marriage and all of that jazz, but I think the term platonic life partner made me approach our relationship a lot more seriously. And it really named the commitment that I think that you and I have for each other and the intentionality behind it. And also as what you said about intimacy too, I think there are very normative, dominant narratives of what that word means. And I think by experiencing quote-unquote platonic intimacy, which isn't that platonic either cuz it's very romantic and you know, and sensual too. But yeah, I think it really differentiates what friendship can look like and really challenges the relationship hierarchy for sure. And that's like my favourite piece.
Oh my god, my brain just brain-fogged a little bit there. But anyways, that's all good. I appreciate your question. Yeah. So, Hmm. How has it impacted my other relationships? Yeah, I think my relationship with you and also my relationship with Gabes. These two relationships in particular have significantly shifted the way that I perceive the binary of platonic and non-platonic. Cuz usually we associate this binary of like, oh, this relationship is either platonic or it's romantic and sexual, right? And I think our relationship has really blurred those boundaries for me, and the recognition that our quote-unquote platonic life partnership is full of romance and it's full of sensuality and intimacy that has to do with the erotic, the eros, of the life force that Audre Lord speaks of. And I referenced this in my conversation with Gabes too. It's not just about sex or romance in the traditional sense. Even though we call it platonic. And I tell friends too that you and I choose to have a non-explicitly sexual relationship, for example. But in a parallel universe, in a different, you know, in the metaverse, I'm sure you and I, and we've talked about this, you and I are probably partners in the traditional sense.
Our relationship is platonic, but it's not platonic. And I think that's been probably one of the most liberatory felt sense learnings that I've received from our relationship. And so then I start to get to explore, okay, how do I explore romance in all of my other relationships? How do I explore sensuality in all of my other relationships? And turns out that a lot of these experiences of sensuality and romance that I experience in my quote-unquote platonic relationships, oftentimes with femmes and women, feel so much more fulfilling and liberatory for me, and they set the standard for me in terms of what I'm looking for in more typical romantic relationships.
I guess I'll pass on the next question in regard to, how do you experience romance in our relationship? And continuing on that conversation of, what are the non-normative things that we do that have really stuck out to you or that have kind of pleasantly surprised other people, for example?
NICOLE: Okay, so to answer the question about how I experienced romance in our relationship… I had to think about this for a second because I was asking myself, what is the difference between romance and love? So I turned to Google [chuckles]. And Google says that romance is essentially the element of mystery or excitement in a relational dynamic. And then there was a suggestion in the Google search that asked what is the difference between romance and love. And it said that romance may or may not lead to love and romance alone is not sustainable. So, it affirmed my feeling of how I wanted to answer this question, which is, I just experience so many different types and forms of love in our relationship. When I think about romance in particular, I think that's more so referencing the courting phase in a relationship which we have definitely surpassed. But I do think there's like cutesy things that we do, which can be seen as romantic and definitely very love-centered.
So, for example, I think of the times when you’ve had like a really hard day, or were going through something challenging in a relationship, and I sent over a DoorDash order of boba or cheesecake or some dessert that you love, and I think that can be romantic but I also think that is a form of love. But more broadly speaking to how we express love that is—I'm just going to say love instead of romance because that resonates more—how we express love in our relationship that is non-normative, or that surprises people…. there are lots of things.
I think first off, the frequency and I want to say intensity, like consistency, in our communication and going back to what I said before with intentionality. We voice note every day and I definitely don't have this frequent communication with anyone else in my life. It brings me so much joy and I feel really close to you when I do that. But I think that would surprise a lot of people if, you know, if I shared this with them, I mean I do share this with them. But if I shared this with everyone in my life, I think it would surprise a lot of people that I do this with someone who isn’t my, I don’t know, like, I'm not dating in a traditional romantic sense, you know?
So I think that's non-normative and I also think that the way that we celebrate each other and celebrate our relationship is non-normative. We went to the Museum of Love in LA and that's targeted towards your typical romantic partner, whether it's a husband or I don't know, your monogamous partner. But we went there as the lovers that we are, and we enjoyed it. I thought it was a really connecting experience. I think those are a couple of examples in which we express our love and romance in a non-normative way. I think also generally, we are very… I think how we are very accepting of each other and non-judgmental. We know each other really well, flaws at all. And I think that quality is expected… people want it in a romantic monogamous partner, but maybe it's not as common or experienced in a platonic friendship. So I think that's a bit non-normative as well. Just how accepting we are of each other, how supportive, how loving and I think that all is rooted in love. I'm also curious to hear your response to your own question, so please share [chuckles].
JI-YOUN: Mmmm! Yes, yes, yes. Oh my gosh, I remember the DoorDash [chuckles]. I was navigating a romantic partnership ending and there was also a lot of systemic violence that felt very personal to us and doing the therapist-client work that I was doing too. It was a lot and… Oh my gosh, no, I remember that you sent me DoorDash and it was at almost midnight. You've sent me DoorDash more than once, but I remember that time especially when it was almost midnight. And it was a total surprise. I was like, Oh my gosh, I feel so freaking loved on right now.
Yeah, when I think about romance… so funny that you went to Google. I also think about… I don't know if you're familiar with Esther Perel. I'm pretty sure I've told you about some of her work in the past, but Esther Perel does a lot of work around infidelity. She talks about the importance of maintaining both a sense of safety through familiarity, but also a sense of novelty, adventure, excitement and spontaneity in a relationship. And when she's speaking to that, she's speaking mostly to the traditional romantic partnership. But yeah, that's kind of what comes up for me when I think about romance, is the cute, exciting, charming each other and we're definitely beyond the courting phase. But I think we still court each other in certain ways and charm each other and romance each other in certain ways. So yeah, the DoorDash is definitely one.
I love to tell people about how I start every morning with good morning voice notes with you with my coffee and that's my morning routine [chuckles]. And I remember when because of work or when you have days when you're not able to, when I don’t have voice notes to respond to you and say good morning to, it disrupts my morning routine [chuckles]. That's something that I've adjusted to and have the capacity to adjust to but yeah. And you generally, on many days, like to do your stretching in the morning while doing our voice notes. So cute things like that.
Yeah, the celebrating each other, the Museum of Love. For the listeners, on Tongva Land in so-called LA, there's a museum called the Museum of Love. And it's actually less of a museum, it's more… you're not like looking at things. It's very interactive and activity-oriented. Yeah, so we went there. You found it, and you brought it up. You booked the reso and I thought that was really cute, for us to share in discussion about love in general and our love for each other. And I loved the bucketlist activity, things like that. So I find that very romantic. And I also really love the ways that we… because we voicenote on a daily basis and you and I have both shared that I would not want to have this degree of communication with more than one person… But I also really love that we share what we're doing in each other's day. What we're doing that day, and how we know what the other person is doing that day, because we heard in advance and just things like that. I feel like those are things, the details of each day. I feel like knowing the details of each day feels really intimate to me. Making our Tiktok/Instagram reels of our time together in person, or the archival work that I did for that 10-year anniversary/birthday reel that I made for you. Yeah, all of those things feel really romantic to me.
And I'll also just share that on our bucket list, us having our goal of living in the same city together. This has come up in client community member sessions actually, with my work as a therapist. Of how common it is for people to move cities or countries or whatever for work or for romantic partnership, but not so much for a community. Moving where your community is right. You and I have been long-distance for the entirety of our relationship. But you and I are planning on living in the same city for at least a few months. And that definitely feels like such an exciting thing in my life in the near future.
But yeah, just, love love, all the love. I really just wish that there were more words in English to describe all the types of love. But that's why we're unpacking, you know. That's why we're unpacking this together in getting into the details of what our love looks like, and how we both like feel love for each other but also share love for each other.
I guess my last question that I prepared in advance for us is actually around how our love for each other expands beyond our relationship into other relationships. And you asked this question earlier in the sense of queering relationships. So the question is, what role does our relationship play in your greater network of a sense of community, your greater network of a sense of social, intimate, emotional life? Oh, and I do have another last question after this one [chuckles]. So we'll finish off with that one.
NICOLE: I totally agree with the response that the plan on living together in the same city is very romantic. Yes to that. Yes to everything you said. To answer your question about what role our relationship plays in my larger community, in other relationships. I think what came to mind is that [laughs].
Okay, it's kind of the standard. It is what I aspire a lot of my relationships to be, not that I want every single one of my relationships to be this intimate and close. I don't think that's possible, but just the different elements of our relationship. It's the standard that I yearn for in my other relationships. In regards to consistency and communication and expression of care and love, understanding, learning from one another, sharing. I just really admire you and us and what we've built together. So yeah, I think in many ways it is the standard and the goal that I kind of compare and contrast my other relationships to.
And I think it also provides me with a sense of hope and vision for relationships that I have in my life and that have yet to come. Just knowing how liberatory our relationship feels. Our relationship has so much forward-moving energy. I don't really know how to describe it, but it feels like anything's possible because of how we show up and just how we interact. So it makes me dream of relationships like that in other spaces. It doesn't have to be a close, platonic, lifelong partner relationship, but even in the workspace or even in just day-to-day interactions. It provides me with a lot of hope and vision.
JI-YOUN: Mmmm, yes, yes, yes. Ugh, I love our love [chuckles]. Yeah, I totally agree in terms of setting the standard and I remember when I realized being like, oh wow, this is what liberatory relationship feels like. And I speak a lot about embodying the world that we want to co-create in our day-to-day lives and in our relationships. And I really feel like all of the things that I try to practice in order to embody my politics and values and visions, I'm able to practice those things in our relationship. Not everything, for sure, but a lot of them. I remember just sitting with the feeling of, wow, I have the embodied knowing, the felt sense knowing, of what liberatory relationships can feel like, and I have more than one and I can continue to cultivate these relationships in my life, in all sorts of types of relationship structures and contexts. That's something that really stands out to me.
Another thing for me was— and I think you and I have talked about this in the past as well— we met when we were like, seventeen, eighteen. We were young people, and we definitely witnessed each other go through a lot of shit and a lot of relational challenges and a lot of challenges that we experienced within ourselves, right? Around our sense of self, self-esteem, confidence and love and groundedness in oneself. And I think another one of the most beautiful things I think, about this relationship, is that I have really learned how to love myself and to love others, through loving you and being loved by you. I really believe in love as something that we have to practice and learn. There are so many skills that are involved in loving well and being loved well. And yeah, for a lot of these, our relationship is definitely one of the main practice zones for me, and also one of the main relationships in which I learned to love myself through being loved by you and learning to love others through loving myself, practicing loving myself.
So yeah, I think the way that we show up in each other's relationships really impacts the way we show up in the relationships in the rest of our lives. I really think that we have been able to attract and cultivate all the other super meaningful and loving relationships in other aspects of our life because we've been able to practice and have this relationship as an example. And, of course, our relationship is not the only example. We're both blessed to have other really fulfilling relationships too. But yeah, I think that's just the power of such intentional loving relationships like this one. And it's also been such a joy to connect you with some of these other people that I love and it's been such a joy to see you connect with them in your own ways and to cultivate your own relationships without me as well. And that's been so good! Because like all these people that I love, just loving on each other and loving each other. Yeah, yeah, it really feels like co-creating our little ripple effect, of co-creating the world that we want to live in and embodying those relationships.
So yeah, that's kind of my piece, I guess. We don't love ourselves in isolation. We also don't learn to love community without loving ourselves. It's both/and and it's just such a gift to have a relationship like this one where we're able to practice love so intentionally. Ugh, feelings. Oh my god, we're so cute. Okay, [laughs] so last question for you. Just any like last comments, tips, tricks, advice, opinions about queering friendship, about love, about platonic life partnership, anything. Any last thoughts?
NICOLE: Oh my god. The feeeeels, all the feeels. Thank you so much for sharing that. I completely agree. My experience in our relationship has been very similar in that I've definitely learned how to love myself, what love feels like and how to love others because of our relationship and because of you. So, thank you. I love you. And it's just pretty incredible to say that out loud [laughs]. Not that I love you. Like just to say that wow, this relationship has been very foundational and transformational in the ways that I experience and know love. Wow. Wow. [laughs]. As for last comments, hmmm.
Okay, I guess my piece of advice for those who are listening and who would like advice when it comes to queering relationships is: don't be afraid to get a little weird. I think weirdness is wonderful and necessary in this world of ours. And follow your curiosities. If there are ways in which you would like to connect with a friend differently or just with whoever in your life, I would say follow that curiosity. Have a conversation with them. It doesn’t have to be a serious conversation. Bring it up and toss ideas around. My feeling is that people are more open to trying things differently, than they're not. Especially if it's coming from someone that they know.
I think queering relationships and friendships is really about experimentation and play, and just see what resonates for that individual dynamic. So yeah, don't be afraid to get weird and vulnerable and just think out of the box because it will definitely play off. Pay off. Wow, it is late. I say that's probably it for now. We've covered so much and I'm so thankful to have shared all of this with you, Ji, and with those of you who are listening.
JI-YOUN: Oh my gosh. Okay, last voice note of this literal full-day conversation [chuckles] that we've been having. It is late, yes. I'm just in bed, about to put my phone away and go to sleep. But um, I love the getting weird. Yes, yes and to just try it out and experiment and play and explore. Yeah. I love you very much too. And I am so glad that you agreed to do this with me. It's like a fun little, I don't know, a creative project, I guess. And I'm sure we will look back at this moment and be like, oh my gosh, remember when we did that? Mmm.
[Gasp] Oh my gosh. I also, just a little note of that, you're the one who introduced bell hooks’ all about love to me, way back. And that book was obviously, like for many people, so frigging foundational to the beginning of my really learning to love myself and learn to love journey. Oh, so precious! Okay, I'm off to sleeeep. I will continue on with the rest of our other voice notes [chuckles]. But thank you so much for joining me in this conversation. And we will leave it at that!